Interview with Dr. Carlos Argüello, Representative of Nicaragua
to the International Court of Justice in The Hague,
with Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
of the "Interview" Program, of RT in Spanish,
3rd July, 2023
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Hi, how are you? Welcome to your “Interview” Program.
37 years ago, Nicaragua once again defeated the United States, exactly on June 27, 1986, the International Court of Justice in The Hague demanded the United States for the bloody and terrorist war imposed against the Nicaraguan People and Government.
For RT it is a privilege to be able to talk on this occasion with Dr. Carlos Argüello, Representative of Nicaragua to the International Court of Justice. Doctor, how are you?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Very good. Thank you so much. Nice to meet you. It is a great pleasure to be here with you all.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Thank you so much. It is a historic date for the Nicaraguan people, in itself this lawsuit was an unprecedented case in the International Court, no one had ever dared, a country as small as Nicaragua had dared to sue this hegemonic country.
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Yes, it was really unprecedented in that sense, and so, actually, it was a very brave thing that Nicaragua did, because opposing the Empire of the States United was a thing never seen. Nicaragua had always been under the boot of the United States and this was unheard of; so it was a very important achievement. There were very strong pressures, it was not a matter of simply saying, we are going to the Court, and the matter is over. The United States exerted all the pressure, they did everything they could, but, luckily, Justice triumphed and we got ahead.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
What consequences had this war caused against the Nicaraguan people?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Imagine, we would not have time list them in this entire interview to. In other words, the purpose of the United States was, and they said it clearly, at that moment the President was Reagan and he said it clearly, what he wanted was for the Sandinistas to surrender, as they say in English, "to cry uncle”, in other words, “ask for cocoa” (to surrender), that until they ask for cocoa he was going to continue. So it was, either they asked for cocoa and surrendered, or we destroyed the country. The intention was to finish the Country, with the Country's economy, with whatever!
The idea of going to Court was not an impulsive issue, let's say that in 1984 when the lawsuit was filed Nicaragua suddenly decided this. We were observing and it was incredible, the attacks from the United States were growing, the financing of the Counterrevolution, the Contras, was growing, also the direct armed attacks on Nicaragua.
In October 1983, even what the United States called, euphemistically, the Unilaterally Controlled Latin American Units, those were Latin American henchmen from the time of the Generals in Argentina, in Chile, who were hired for this type of operations in Nicaragua.
So in October, they simply entered Nicaragua with United States patrolmen and they bombarded and burned the only important port of Nicaragua, the Port of Corinto; that is to say, they were actions of that type, we were no longer even talking about financing autochthonous Nicaraguan troops, even if they were autochthonous, but rather they were direct attacks on Nicaragua.
Later this was growing and growing. At last, the mining of Nicaraguan Ports was the absolute limit. That caused commotion even in conversational circles around the world, even in countries with large commercial shipping systems and what not; because even in time of war, when ports or areas are mined, it is warned to the whole world, it is made public precisely so that they know that it is mined and that the ships do not enter.
Nevertheless, this was done by the United States in silence, and that aspect was criticized by everyone, because it endangered international shipping. In other words, it was not the international concern of the Countries, of the great powers, solely because the Law was being violated, but because the Law was being violated in a way that could affect them as well.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Did these actions motivate the Sandinista government, at that time, to file this lawsuit?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Of course. That is why I tell you, it was not something we thought at the last moment; we were observing that all this was growing, growing and growing. Therefore, we reached to a conclusion and there, among the analyzes we did, for example with Father Miguel d'Escoto, who was the Foreign Minister at that time, we commented; for example, that on the newspapers in the United States, on the Media, particularly in the United States, and generally in the World, nobody mentioned the word "International Law", it was non-existent that the United States was invading Nicaragua; They said: Well, you have to do it carefully, but no one mentioned that they are violating International Law.
So, all these things led us to a point where here in Nicaragua, with Comandante Ortega, who was the Head of the Government at that time, the conclusion was to use this peaceful instrument such as the Law in order to defend Nicaragua, not only using arms and pure diplomacy, but also with the use of Law. And that was when the decision to go to Court was made.
But the United States was aware of everything that was happening, imagine that a few days before presenting the lawsuit, the Foreign Minister of the United States, Secretary of State, Shultz, at the time, sent a note to the Secretary General of United Nations, withdrawing U.S. approval of the International Court's jurisdiction for everything related to Central America for a period of 5 years. That is, the United States already knew, but obviously if they live spying, they live doing everything, even since then, that a lawsuit was possible.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Did you imagine that Nicaragua was going to be heard in this Court?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Fortunately, we were certain that everything that was happening was so evident and so obvious, that it was impossible for a Court of Justice to rule otherwise.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Comandante-President Daniel recently sent a letter to the Secretary General of the United Nations. What can be achieved, what response could Nicaragua obtain from this Judgment, with this action that is being carried out?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
The Note that was sent was to be circulated to the Members of the United Nations, it was simply to insist that this sentence of the Court; which is firm and unquestionable, no one can change it anymore neither today nor in 100 years, this Judgment has already been recorded in history books; condemns the United States to compensate Nicaragua for these damages. So, what has been done is to recall that Nicaragua insists on that Right that it has.
It was also mentioned, that in these times in which there are claims and demands for compensation for all the atrocities that have been done in the world, such as slavery, which Nicaragua fully shares and wholeheartedly agrees; there are claims even for Climate Change, for the effects of Climate Change, so that Countries that are being harmed by this be compensated.
So, within all that environment we have to remember that there is also a debt in favor of Nicaragua, that the United States owes that and that it is not that you have to go and consult someone, but that the Court has already said that the United States owes it.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
What does it mean for the United States to default on this payment?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Well, if the situation were reversed and Nicaragua was the Power, if Nicaragua would say this country does not pay its debts, then zero international loans, zero this, zero the other, zero the rest. Unfortunately, Nicaragua cannot do that, but on the contrary, the United States, instead of paying us, they are harming us, attacking us with all those types of activities, as if we were indebted to them. That is the irony of this situation.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
How is the United States now reflected, the so-called "democratic country" or "democratic", with the changes, with the Multipolar World that is seeking in favor of the Peoples? How are they now?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
I believe that what is happening is becoming more evident every day in the United States, which really is the Country of euphemisms, where white is called black, and vice versa. But now all this is becoming evident, there is no longer absolute control of the Media, so the world already knows what is happening. I think they have been realizing that it is not possible, or even beneficial for anyone, for the United States to continue to control the world economy.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Could the compensation be currently quantified? How much would it amount, taking into account that it has already been almost 4 decades?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
What happens is that we made a calculation and we presented what is called the Report, which was our demand for compensation; we presented it in 1988, because the Judgment was in 1986, but in the Judgment it was said that the United States should compensate us and that if we did not agree, the United States and Nicaragua then will go to the Court.
Obviously we were not going to agree with the United States, so we wrote and sent letters, the paperwork was filled out, obviously there was nothing; so we presented the request for compensation and we prepared the Memorial, I mean this Complaint, which was a document that was carefully prepared by a very prominent man we had here, May He Rest In Peace, Doctor Paul Oquist, who was the one who coordinated these efforts that involved inputs from the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Education, the Army, the Police, all the Organizations of Nicaragua, and the Mayor's Offices, to see the damage that had been caused.
So we were quantifying, in addition to the direct damage, of the dead, of the wounded, everything that was causing, imagine, a whole generation of young people who had to be in the Patriotic Service in the Army and not studying, as they should have. In other words, all the damage that was caused, not only to the economy, but to the people here in Nicaragua, the terror that they were causing.
I was remembering now, commemorating the Sentence, the things that young people have already forgotten... They never experienced it!
Imagine that part of the aggression of the United States, that the Judgment includes it, there were ultrasonic planes that they supposedly sent to spy, but they were not to spy, they came to terrorize Nicaragua. They were called Black Bird, because they created a frightful sound like a bomb, these planes were coming almost daily, they passed through the towns and of course everyone was terrified, they believed that they were being bombed. It was part of the campaign, that is, everything they could, all the damage they could do, they were doing it to Nicaragua. It was never seen. The Court specifically points out this in its Judgment.
The other Document that they also created, in that case even the North American Judge in the Court voted against the United States, in one of the few points it was shown that the United States CIA, the American Central Intelligence Agency, had prepared a Terrorism Manual for the Contras, to educate the Contras on how they had to get to the people, convene the people, prosecute the Authorities, cause problems, and if it was not possible, even hire, the book says this, hire known criminals to execute people, to commit crimes.
The Government of the United States, because the CIA belongs to the Government of the United States; with that Document it was demonstrated that they had prepared it to be used and to train the people, to whom they were financing here. It was incredible!
As I tell you, at that time the United States believed that they could publicly do whatever they wanted. You could go to the United States and watch the discussions in Congress on the television, we are going to give 100 million to the “Contras”, we are going to do this, we are going to do that. Everything was public!
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Was it normal for them?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
This was normal, this is the right of the United States, since they are Freedom fighters. I mean, now they continue to do it obviously, but they continue to do it in a more underhanded, in a more hidden way.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
"If Nicaragua is small, one dreams it big", is one of the most recognized phrases of our Poet Ruben Dario. Nicaragua is still an Example of Dignity for Latin America and for the entire World, of Defense of National Sovereignty too?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
I truly believe that, since our National Hero, Augusto Sandino, who gave that example. Why do generations now think that the figure of General Sandino was a creation of the 80s? General Sandino was a man who was internationally known in the 1930s, since 1928; in other words, he was a recognized and admired figure throughout Latin America, he is not an invention of Nicaraguan Sandinism.
We have a true Hero, a Hero that was internationally recognized, and He is our National Hero, who was precisely to defend the Sovereignty of Nicaragua. That was the main purpose, Sandino did not allow the imposition and domination of the United States, our country belongs to Nicaraguans not to the North Americans. Sandino gave that example, and he is the example that we all try to follow here in Nicaragua.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
The International Court of Justice, the Highest Judicial Authority in the World, has agreed that Nicaragua was right in many rulings, we see it with this ruling against the United States, also with Colombia, with Costa Rica. What example could Nicaragua set in the search for Peace, to resolve conflicts, and resorting to International Organizations such as The Hague?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
I think what is important here is that Nicaragua has given full proof that it wants to use intellect and Law. Nicaragua has never sought to do anything by force; in the cases that you mention, we have never tried to violate, or force, or impose ourselves to Honduras or Costa Rica, which are countries similar to Nicaragua. Obviously, by force we were not going to attack the United States, or either Colombia, which are much more powerful.
But not even with our equals have we ever resorted to force, it's not about that; all our problems and situations, let's say, if there is a difference between us?
Well, here we go before an Authority to resolve it, and who is better than the International Court of Justice, which is the Highest Court of the World, as you said; it is the United Nations Court that is supposed to encompass the universe of the Earth, of States.
Nicaragua has always been ready, not to say that we are right and here is the reason and we maintain ourselves and nobody takes us out of here; but, well, do you think we are wrong? Here we are going to discuss it.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
The United States is still pending to honor this debt and Nicaragua continues to demand Justice, Reparation and Peace at the International Level.
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Completely! This is a debt towards Nicaragua, which is an inalienable debt, it is a debt that cost blood, Human Lives, sweat, everything. They almost destroyed Nicaragua, they ruined an entire generation of people with all these attacks. So, it is logical that Nicaragua is not going to say: Well, let's turn the pages!
Imagine, because a lot of people think, oh, it's this enmity with the United States that's causing the problems. I always give you the example of the 1990s. In 1990, Comandante Ortega handed over the Presidential Band to a new President, so everyone said: The United States achieved what they wanted, they were invading Nicaragua sending hundreds of millions in weapons, now money from the United States is going to rain down on Nicaragua.
Nothing came! The only thing that happened is that the United States stopped preventing International Organizations from helping Nicaragua. But someone come tell me, some Economist of the so-called Opposition: No, look, it's that the United States gave us 500 million dollars. Tell me where. What did the United States give? They never gave anything! The United States destroys, and they go, they put whoever they want and move on. And that is the turning of the page.
And if we are going to say that the page is turned, and that what the United States did in Nicaragua in the 1980s is not going to be repeated... Well, 20 years later they invaded Iraq, and no one says much about that. The invasion of Iraq was for the defense of the United States, because since there were weapons of mass destruction that could affect the United States, then the United States invaded a country 10,000 kilometers away, violating the entire International Law. But no one says anything about that, that already happened.
They tortured people so outrageously that even in the United States Media, in the main Media, it was on the news that they were torturing people in the Iraq war. Who reacted? Who? Apart from words ... And now what is happening, now that I mention that and what worries me too, is that these countries allied with the United States are wanting to distort, destroy, truly transform the purposes of certain International Organizations such as the Court, for their purposes.
The International Court itself was deducted strength for the mere fact that they created two new Courts, a Court of the Sea that has nothing to do with the International Court, and the Criminal Court that has nothing to do either. In other words, obviously 50 years ago the International Court of Justice is the only Court in the World, Period! Now they have created other Courts that are not universal, no matter how much they call them that. Because the International Criminal Court is not universal, nor is the United States part of that Court, but it is being used and promoted as if it was the World Criminal Court.
So, they are not only diluting International Justice which is part of the purpose, but now to the same International Court. For example, with this demand from Ukraine to Russia, in which 30-odd NATO countries have intervened, that is not seeking Justice, that is simply putting political pressure on a Body that should not be subjected to such pressures.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
And they say it publicly, we send so much money, so many weapons, and they don't care about anything else.
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Oh no, no, that's correct!
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Being part of the History of this Country that seeks Dignity, which also seeks to promote Respect among all ... What is the meaning for you as an Official who represents this Homeland in a Country so far away, there in The Hague?
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Well, actually so many years, imagine, but that's life, one has to stay moving where fate and needs call, and above all when one works for a People like the Nicaraguan, a poor Country that has been besieged from all sides, one has to do what the circumstances allow, but anyway, I'm going to continue like this until I can. Right now I don't need a wheelchair, but in the future, if I'm going to need one, I'm going to use a wheelchair.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Doctor, thank you very much for your time, thank you for that explanation, and congratulations on that well-deserved recognition, from our Government and also from the Nicaraguan people.
Words of Dr. Carlos Argüello
Well, thank you very much Silvana, it has been a pleasure to be here.
Journalist Silvana Jarquín León
Thank you very much doctor. We have been with Dr. Carlos Argüello, Representative of Nicaragua before the International Court of Justice in The Hague. Until next time.